From time to time I hear about Christians walking away from Christianity and becoming atheists. But I have also seen many atheists turn to Christianity. This post is about one such atheist who started off as an aggressive, passionate atheist confronting Christians and arguing against their faith. He made every effort to persuade them to turn from Christianity, which he viewed as a force for bad in the world. To him, there was nothing good about Christianity.
It was years before he started to see contradictions in his own beliefs. Then he began to question himself, wondering what was true. Ironically, even his atheist friends, those he confided in most, couldn’t answer his biggest questions.
In this interview with Eric Hovind he discusses the moral argument, presuppositional apologetics, Hume’s Guillotine, and more.
Whether you’re an atheist or not, there’s a lot to learn from Daniel and his experiences. And if you are an atheist, I sincerely invite you to watch. It is a bit lengthy- one hour and fifteen minutes, so feel free to adjust the speed to get through quicker, but please watch as much as you’re able. I’d love to hear your feedback, even if it’s negative.
sixdaysblog 
Christian morality is demosntrably subjective, with each inventing a list of morals they claim their god wants, and yet the poor dears can’t show that their god merely exists, much less agrees with them. They also have the problem that they must insist that their god doesn’t have to follow these supposedly “objective” morals since they have to invent excuses why it is okay for this god to commit genocide, to kill people for the actions of others, etc. This makes their morality subjective to who someone is. it also shows their morality is little more than might equals right
Again, to state that morality exists is evidence that God exists, as morality can’t exist if God doesn’t exist. If morality is subjective or nonobjective, then it can’t be real. It becomes personal, where everyone’s morality is whatever they want it to be. And if morality is subjective, then what happens when your morality is in conflict with someone else’s morality? Whose morality is right and whose is wrong? Is your morality more moral than your opponent’s? Is it might makes right? Rock, paper scissors? What one prefers? God’s morality doesn’t change because he is unchanging. Rape is always wrong. Murder is always wrong. Adultery is always wrong. Idolatry is always wrong. If morality is just preference, then these acts are neither moral nor immoral. If all humans cannot agree that murder is always wrong, then humans cannot be the source of morality because there’s no universal agreement.
You ask to show what morality God wants. He tells us in his word. Aside from the Ten Commandments, he says to love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 5:44-45 he says, “But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.” And in Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus says, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Christians are sinners too, so it’s not surprising when sinners can’t agree, or that many don’t follow the commandments. This is acknowledged throughout the Bible. You’re making it seem like Christians disagreeing or disobeying the commandments somehow disproves the Bible. But none of this negates God or Christianity. Again, morality isn’t subjective. It’s objective. Morality doesn’t mean anything unless it’s biblical and comes from God. God is the source of morality, and since he has revealed his morality in the Bible, we must test what is moral against his word, which doesn’t change. Just because Christians and other theists have used the sword for millennia doesn’t mean that God approved. So your argument fails.
As for not stoning adulterers or disobedient children, I’d suggest taking a theology class. This is a perfect opportunity to study the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament was based on the law, and disobeying the law meant death and judgment. But the problem is, nobody is good enough to keep the law. And that’s why Jesus became a man. Only he was good enough to cover the sin and guilt of every human being by the shedding of his blood on the cross. With this New Covenant, we no longer have to put people to death for adultery because Christians are no longer under the law. We are now under God’s grace (Acts 20:24). We are now justified by grace through faith (Romans 3:24). This doesn’t mean that adultery or disobeying one’s parents is okay, but that we’re no longer under the law. Read through Romans 4-5 to get a better understanding (or the entire book of Romans if you have time).
But you are correct when you state, “not a single christian can do what jesus promises, including *you*.” That’s why we need Jesus. And that’s why Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Nobody can keep all of God’s commands or laws. Only Jesus could do that. And that’s why we need to confess our sins. So that we can be forgiven.
You ask me to show that I have the right religion. Well, I’m not sure what evidence you would accept. Christianity is a personal relationship with God, so I’d suggest spending just a short time in prayer and ask God to reveal himself to you. Pray this for seven days and let me know what you’ve learned. I can’t show you that I have the right religion. But God can.
Yes, there is a Law of Biogenesis. It’s pretty simple to understand. It states that life always comes from life. It’s a law because it works. Every time. No exceptions. You want evidence? Easy. Consider, have you ever observed a person or animal give birth? Tell me, did the offspring have a parent? If yes, this simple exercise demonstrates the Law of Biogenesis. On the other hand, if you’ve ever met anyone who wasn’t born or doesn’t have parents, then the law would be violated. Have you ever observed offspring arise from dirt, chemicals, spoiled meat or other natural processes? I’m willing to bet that you haven’t. And how do I know? Because that would violate the Law of Biogenesis, and no one has ever observed a violation of this law. If you have witnessed a violation, then you would win a Nobel Prize because scientists have been trying to create life for decades with no success. But consider this, even if scientists did create life from scratch, this would only strengthen the Law of Biogenesis. Why? Because only living beings can create life. Remember, life only comes from life. This means that the first living organisms had to be created by a living being. And that living being has revealed himself in the Bible. So, in order to falsify the Law of Biogenesis, one would have to observe molecules naturally coming together to form proteins and enzymes and DNA and RNA and digestive systems and reproductive systems and nervous systems, etc. And all this would have to happen without the aid of intelligent agents (i.e. scientists).
This is not a god of the gaps argument. This isn’t just that scientists don’t understand how the first living organism appeared. It’s that such things don’t happen naturally. The simplest life forms are so complicated and advanced that it’s scientifically unreasonable to infer that such a thing could arise spontaneously by natural processes. This is what led Fred Hoyle to liken the probability of life arising by chance to a Boeing 747 being fully assembled by a tornado in a junk yard, fueled and ready to fly. It’s not an argument from incredulity or a god of the gaps argument. It’s that there’s no evidence something so complicated could get billions of steps correct without a mistake that would lead to a dead end. There’s a reason why we don’t see life popping up around us. At some point, if you’re honest, you have to admit that abiogenesis is scientifically unfeasible. The real problem, as I see it, is atheists will never let go of this because their hope is in the belief that life could form spontaneously by natural processes without God. If their premise is wrong, then that opens the door to the possibility that God exists, and that is not an option for a committed atheist.
If God exists, then what I believe is true. If God doesn’t exist, then there is no truth because there’s no way to verify that your brain can perceive truth or reality without applying circular reasoning. You can’t judge your mind to be working properly because if it were not, how would you know? You could trust your senses, but how do you know your senses can be trusted? But if God exists and has created us so that we can understand reality, then truth exists. And if truth exists, then I can trust that what I believe is true… at least as long as I see truth from God’s word. Therefore, if morals exist, then God exists. And if God exists, morals exist. No God, no morals. Everyone is free to do what’s right in their own eyes, but that means there are no objective morals. So who cares if you’re taught morality by other humans? That doesn’t mean objective morality exists. What you call morality is not morality, but personal preference because there’s no objective standard by which your morals are measured. Without something higher than you, there’s no true morality. You can call it whatever you want, but it’s not really morality if it is subjective. Sure, you can judge God and Christians, but the problem is, if God exists, then he’s going to judge you by his standards. And if your sins aren’t forgiven, then you will be separated from him for eternity in hell, and that’s not a very pleasant place to spend eternity. So my advice is, please come to saving grace in Christ Jesus.
Why do you have a problem with humans lying that some imaginary being should be claimed as morality’s source and pretending this being will punish anyone who disagrees with them with eternal torture? What’s wrong with lying if God doesn’t exist, and why should I care what you think? Is your morality better than mine? Of course not. That’s just your preference. To each his own. If God doesn’t exist, it’s not like I’d go to hell for lying about an imaginary God. Lying is only wrong if God exists and punishes sin. So what if you don’t like it when someone lies to you? It’s not sinful if God doesn’t exist. You just don’t like it.
You say that human morality isn’t perfect but it’s what we have. Really? Think about it. Maybe it’s not perfect because there’s no objective standard apart from God. It’s entirely subjective and doesn’t have any merit unless God exists.
If morality is based on empathy and self interest (nothing more), then you have no right to judge me or anyone because your judgment has no value unless you’re strong enough to impose your morality on me. Might makes right. Nonetheless, your morality is meaningless. It’s just a feeling that doesn’t exist. Some chemicals went through your brain. That’s it. Different people feel differently based upon the chemicals interacting with the molecules in their brain. You can’t weigh your morality on a scale. You can’t hold it in your hand, or look at it under a microscope. Your morality doesn’t exist. It’s not tangible. So it’s okay if my ignorant cult harms people because whose to say what reality is, and who are you to judge? If morality is subjective, then there’s nothing wrong with harming people anymore than it’s wrong for a wolf to harm a deer by killing and eating it. The deer might believe the wolf is in a harmful cult, but 500 years from now, so what? 500 years from now, you and I won’t be alive. Does it really matter what you think about my ignorant harmful cult? I’d suggest it doesn’t matter what you think. Unless there’s an ultimate judge who will judge you and me. Then morality matters because it will be weighed on the scale by the righteousness of Christ.
True, if God exists, no one has to obey it. We find examples of that throughout history. That’s why God sent a global flood. Because no one was obeying him (except Noah). And that’s also why he sent his one and only son, Jesus Christ, to atone for the sin of disobedient humans. So there’s judgment for those who don’t obey God, and salvation for those who do. But again, this isn’t might makes right. This is a holy God who created us and has every right to demand our obedience. To say it’s might makes right diminishes the truth. God is mighty, but he is also right to use his might. But again, even if you believe it’s might makes right, then your morals still aren’t any better than God’s. You’re still expressing your opinion, and God doesn’t need to seek your advice. God can do whatever he wants. And if you think God is a tyrant, then how do you benefit from mocking and taunting him? Do you think that will help your case on judgment day?
You ask me to show how genocide is justifiable. This tells me you didn’t understand when I said that God doesn’t need to make excuses for genocide or murder because he’s not guilty. And if he’s not guilty, then there’s no need to justify the one who is innocent. The definition of genocide is, “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion or race.” When God judges, he doesn’t judge on these factors. He judges based on obedience vs. disobedience. Therefore, God is not guilty of genocide because the term doesn’t apply.
It doesn’t surprise me that you think my analogy is wrong. You’d have to admit you’re wrong if my analogy was valid, which it is. You just don’t want to admit you’re wrong. I get it. Atheists can’t let the facts get in the way of their faith.
Yes, it is our sin that’s responsible for all the suffering and death in this world. This doesn’t imply that God is impotent. It’s just that you don’t understand God, who he is, or what is plan is. Yes, God made the rules, and he could change them. But he’s not going to because he didn’t make a mistake. History is unfolding exactly as he has ordained, according to his plan. So death and suffering are our fault because of Adam’s sin and because we’re sinners. God’s plan is a redemptive plan. His plan all along was to create a people to live with him forever in paradise. But the problem is, without death and suffering, we would lack certain character traits that can only be obtained through suffering. How can we learn perseverance if we’ve never had to persevere? How could we ever obtain character unless we were put through the rigors that would shape our character? How would we ever learn how to deal with pain and suffering unless we had to endure it? How could we overcome painful experiences if we never had to experience any? God is sharpening us. God is refining us like silver in a furnace, where all the impurities are removed, leaving only the purest silver. That’s what God is doing. He’s making us mature and complete so that we lack nothing when we get to heaven.
Sure, God could have made us righteous and holy to begin with, but there’s something valuable about suffering. Even Jesus became a man so that he could experience suffering. He didn’t make us endure something he wasn’t willing to endure himself. That’s a good, loving and great God. Suffering sucks, but it makes us better because of the qualities it produces.
Yes, God has made promises, and we Christians trust God to fulfill his promises, just as he has done throughout history. He kept his promises in the Bible, and we trust him to fulfill all his promises. He has a pretty good track record.
David committed adultery, and then killed Uriah the Hittite. So God punished David by taking his son. In other words, God held David accountable for his sin. Notice all the misery David suffered in later years, particularly when his own son overthrew him as king, forcing David to flee and eventually face him in battle.
How do you know God doesn’t exist? Have you ever searched for him? If you sincerely seek him, you will find him. Again, it doesn’t matter if Christians can’t agree on what God considers a sin. God knows what he considers a sin, and he has revealed that in his word. That’s what matters. All your argument does is show how sinful and imperfect humans are, which is why Jesus died on the cross. Which Jesus? The one written about by the prophets, disciples and apostles.
You may think you don’t worship anything at all, but every human worships something. There are numerous tell-tale signs of a cult, and atheism fits the bill. Absolute authoritarianism without accountability (you are the authoritarian). Zero tolerance for criticism. Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions (you’ve mentioned some). A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave. Yes, atheism is a cult.
You keep making the claim that I have no evidence, but I do, and you’re not listening. You simply reject whatever you don’t like. That’s on you. I can’t make you believe. But I did provide evidence. You just need to be open minded enough to recognize the evidence when it’s presented to you.
Anyway, that’s enough for now. Again, please consider coming to God in prayer and sincerely ask him to reveal himself to you. That’s really the only way you’re going to believe because you’ll simply reject any evidence presented to you out of hand.
Well, that was quite a list of false claims. Here’s the TLDR version of the following:
“I already did what you claim will work and surprise, it fails miserably as usual. So, you have only a few options:
your god doesn’t do what you want and has thrown you under the proverbial bus
Your god doesn’t exist. ”
Unsurprisngly, nothing shows that morality can’t exist without your imaginary friend. You simply assert it does with no evidence.
Morality is a human invention, a set of rules that help cultures exist. No need for any gods for these at all. Morality never has to be objective, and we know that since Christians all claim an objective morality and not one can show that their morals are any better than the next nor that their morals are divinely approved at all.
Yep, all morals are indeed personal. Still no need for your imaginary friend. When morals are in conflict, then humans either discuss why or fight over why. Still no evidence for your imaginary friend.
There is no one “right” morality, and again, Christians demonstrate that quite well. One can determine if a morality is better than another by how much harm it causes and yep, that can be subjective too.
Funny how your god’s morality has changed repeatedly by how christains claim to “interpret” their bible, which is, again, why you all have different morality that you claim your god “gave” you. This god has no problem in murdering children, so if murder is always wrong, then your god is wrong. Your god has no problem with rape, since it has no problem with little girls being given to soldiers as part of the war prizes. I’m sure you’ll try to claim that murder is always wrong, except when this god does it, which means your morality isn’t objective at all, being dependent on, e.g. subject to, who someone is.
Your bible does have that adultery is wrong. It also says that this god’s worshippers are to kill adulterers. How many have you killed, Jonathan? People of other religions are also to be killed, especially if they try to convert you, so how many have you killed, Jonathan? Or do you have some excuse why you don’t have to do these things that your god tells you to do?
Acts are moral or immoral depending on the observer. Again, your baseless assertions that morality must be objective is simply false.
Yep, your god does say love your neighbor as yourself. Christians can’t agree on what “neighbor” means in this context. Your god also says to never fight against evil, but plenty of Christians ignore that too, and I’ll guess you are one of them. “38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.” Matthew 5
No one is a “sinner”. That is nonsense that theists make up in order to pretend some imaginary being agrees with their morality, and surprise, since Christians don’t agree on a morality, they have no idea what this god considers a “sin”. Curious how Christians don’t follow the commandments, just like you, Jonathan since I don’t see you killing any disobedient children, adulterers, etc. I can be pretty sure you are also likely wearing a mixed fiber shirt, and probably eat one of the many proscribed foods mentioned in Exodus/Leviticus, in this god’s “commandments”.
it does negate this religion and its god since Christians all invent different gods that want different things. Again, Jonathan, your god isn’t the same as a christiain who has a god that has no problem with LGBT+ people, etc, and since you can’t show your version any better than the next, no reason to believe any of a christian’s contradictory nonsense.
Your lies that morality doesn’t mean anything unless it comes from your imaginary friend is simply a baseless assertion. And funny how it was never your god that gave humans morality. Eve took it. Your god wanted amoral humans for eternity.
Per the bible stories, your god “once upon a time” had no problem showing its disapproval. Curious how impotent it has become. Not one of you can show what this imaginary being “approves” of.
Yep, here’s the excuses from you why you don’t have to follow the commandments in your bible that you don’t like. You’ll run to the OT when you want to hate LGBT+ people, but whine when I dare mention that you also need to be following those other commandments. Love your hypocrisy, Jonathan!
Curious how, if your god is omniscient, and knew that the law wouldn’t work, it literally lied to the Israelites when it said that following the law is what it wanted. As happens repeatedly in your bible, this god’s desires change completely, showing that you lie when you claim this god doesn’t change.
It is only in the NT when the excuse is made that no one can follow the law, when people didn’t want to follow it. So your god, rather than being unchanging, has failed repeatedly, and then comes up with a human blood sacrifice by torture to create a loophole for the rules it made in the first place. If this was this god’s supposed plan all along, curious how it screwed around with things it knew would fail. How stupid is that, Jonathan?
Curious how Christians can’t agree on how one is saved, and some believe in grace, which Paul invented, and some believe in what jesus said, it being belief and works. Alas for you, Jonathan, jesus said that you have to follow *all* of this god’s laws, no exceptions given at all:
“17 ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish (to end) the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish (to end) but to fulfil (put into effect). 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
No wonder not a single christain can do what jesus promises since you all ignore him. You are all paulians, not Christians at all.
Unsurprisngly, you should have jesus, and yet, Jonathan, you don’t. If you had jesus, you’d be able to do what he promises, and surprise, you can’t. Nice to see how you are again demonstrated as a complete fraud. I’m sure you confessed your sins, but gee, that didn’t work for jesus, right since you still can’t show you are a Christian at all?
Yep, I’ve asked you to show me that you have the right version of Christianity, and you can’t. How not surprising at all. I do enjoy that you won’t even try to give evidence, trying to blame me for not accepting what you can’t even give. It’s hilarious how you have to claim that I need to pray for evidence, when I have already done that. It’s great how you desperately hope to kick the can down the road, and of course, claim that I didn’t pray in the “right” way when your imaginary friend doesn’t answer. It’s even more amusing when you say repeat the same prayer for seven days, quite the magic spell nonsense which seems to indicate your god can’t get it in one. Seems that your bible is quite sure you are wrong: “5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” Matthew 6
Nope, no law of biogenesis, and like all creationist liars, you have no source for this supposed law, you just make it up. Curious how you have no evidnce it works everytime, nor do you have any evidence that life can’t come from non-life. You simply have nothing for your baseless assertions as usual.
As usual, your ignorance is your downfall. That you are too ignorant, and too cowardly to learn about abiogenesis and evolution doesn’t make those things wrong nor does it show your imaginary friend exists. That one animal has a parent doesn’t mean that life started that way. There is no law to be violated, just the baseless lies of a Christian who makes things up. Yep, whomever figures how how life arose will get a nobel prize. Curious how no Christian has ever won that by saying “my imaginary friend did it” since you have no evidence for that imaginary friend at all.
Curious how we already observe molecules coming together to form proteins with no evidence of any intelligent force being required, so your lies fail yet again. All you have is the typical god of the gaps lies. I do love when liars like you try to move the goalposts when your lies fail.
It is exactly a god of the gaps argument, since all you have is “my god did it” and have no evidence for your god’s existence or that it does anything at all. It’s also great when an ignorant Christian tries Hoyle’s argument, which has been long since superseded, since it requires a single junkyard and a single tornado. Curious how evolutionary theory doesn’t require that at all, and neither does abiogenesis.
it’s always fun how Christians are too lazy and cowardly to know just how simple some lifeforms are. So your ignorance again makes you a complete idiot. I also love how you have to lie about me and claim that I can only be honest, if I agree with your lies. Sorry, dear, reality doesn’t work like that.
Funny how it’s been millennia, and not one theist of any religion has shown their god exists at all.
Then you try the amazingly ignorant nonsense about how I supposedly can’t trust a brain that came from evolution. You of course can’t explain why I can’t and since I interact correctly with my environment, I have evidence that I can indeed trust that brain.
Truth exists, no need for your imaginary god, Jonathan. Truth exists since again, we correct interact with our environment. And since christains can’t agree on what their god’s word even is, since it contradicts itself repeatedly, you have no truth at all. Jonathan, all you have is “my version of the christain god exists”, and eveyr other theist makes the exact same claim with the same arguments, and not one of you can show that you god exists at all.
you have a circular argument, dear “god exists because morals exist god exists because morals exist…..”
You are taught morality by other humans, no god at all. Morality exists because humans exist. It’s lovely that now you are reduced to “it’s not really morality if it is subject”. Oh really? How does that work, dear?
And since I don’t believe your imaginary friend exists, and you can’t show that it does, why would I be concerned about an imaginary thing judging me, since you Christians can’t even agree on what it would judge me on? BTW, hell is one of those things you cultists can’t agree on, since you poor dears can’t agree if it is separation from god, a physical place with fire, etc. etc. Your impotent threats fail, Jonathan.
Sigh. I have a problem with your and your fellow cultists’ lies sine they cause real harm. Yep, my morality is better than yours since I don’t have to create excuses for an imaginary being’s actions, like genocide, killing people for things they didn’t do, slavery, etc.
Lying is wrong since it removes the ability of someone to make an informed decision. No god needed to make it wrong and harmful.
Yep, human morality isn’t perfect and yep, it is what we have. I’ve thought about it and your lies still fail, dear. No evidence of a god so no evidence of perfect morality. Again, dear, you still need to show your imaginary friend exists. You have yet to do so.
I have plenty of right to judge you. You whining and claiming I don’t is again one more baseless assertion from you. My judgement has value to me, just as your judgement has value to you. You just have to lie and claim it is from some magical being.
Feelings exist, poor dear, and yep, they are chemicals in the brain. I can need weigh moralities on a scale. Your lack of a god means I must to be able to judge. My morality exists, and it’s sweet that you are such a child that you have to pretend that if you say something, it is magically true. I can judge many intangible things. Nothing says I cannot.
Nope, it isn’t okay that your ignorant cult harms people since again, I have empathy and self-interest. And thanks for admitting it does harm people. If morality is subjective, I can decide that it is immoral to harm people. I can ignore your subjective morality that comes from nothing more than you.
you and I wont’ be alive 500 years from now, but we will have influenced this world and that is why it is important. I love how you’ve become a nihilist, Jonathan, in your desperation to claim your god exists. Happily, I am not a nihilist at all. And again, you poor cultists can’t agree on what the “righteous of christ” even is.
No global flood, and surprise, christains can’t agree on that garbage either. So no god, no flood, and no petty revenge by this god. Then this god manages to have Noah, a drunk and an idiot who manages to curse his grandson, rather than the son that raped or cuckholded noah.
No judgement, just the lies of your cult, Jonathan, which, again, can’t agree on how someone is saved or what “sin” even is. Your morality is indeed might equals right since you excuse your god for doing things that you would consider a “sin” if a human did the same. No evidence this god made anyone and thus your claims of its “rights” fail miserably.
Your god doesn’t need to seek advice, and your god does nothing when I say it is imaginary garbage, when once upon a time, it would have supposedly killed me. Funny how impotent it’s become. I’ve been mocking your garbage and your imaginary friend for 30+ years now.
I know exactly what you said when you tried to claim it’s okay for your god to commit genocide. Again, you are a pathetic sycophant who has to claim anything his tyrant does is okay, e.g. might equals right. Your god, per your bible, deliberately destroys a culture, that’s genocide, no matter how much you try to lie about it, dear. The term does indeed apply since this “obedience” depends on belief and culture. You support genocide, Jonathan. You are no more than a typical nazi or Stalinist.
Since you can’t show I’m wrong, why would I admit it? It’s great to see you lie about me yet again, when your god hates lies and liars.
Oh dear, you can’t define “sin”, you can’t show your god exists and you can’t show that some “sin” is responsible for suffering and death. It does indeed show your god is impotent and doesn’t exist. Your claim of a “plan” are also baseless. You have to invent nonsense to claim your god isn’t an idiot. Your assumptions of a plan also fail since Christians have been claiming things are what this god wants for millennia, and yet have not been able to show this is true.
If this god has a plan, then suffering and death is required for that plan since it knew what adam would do. Otherwise, this god would stop suffering and death. Again, you depend on your bible nonsense to be true and yep, can’t show that works either.
It’s hilarious hat you claim his plan was “all along” about people sinning, since this god, what? Couldn’t’ stop that to begin with? ROFL. And why couldn’t this god simply make humans with those character traits? That this god has to depend on its supposed archenemy for things to happen is just pathetic.
you are an idiot, Jonathan, that you have to have a god now allowing suffering and death since it failed to make us what it wanted us to be. You assume that there is something to be gained by satan corrupting adam and eve, that your god couldn’t accomplish on its own. Tsk, that makes your god not omniscient and not omnipotent, since it must depend on something else.
Why would this omniscient god need to experience suffering, since it, by definition, already experiences it?
Yep, your god has made promises and it has failed at all of them. That cultists trust their imaginary friend doesn’t mean it exists. Funny how there is no evidence in the bible that this god exists or fulfills its promises. All you have are stories. There is no “track record” at all. If you want to claim that the bible is a “track record” then other religions have the same things in their holy books too.
Yep, davide committed adultery and then participated in murder. This god of yours kills david’s son for what David did, showing a complete lack of justice. Per the story, this child suffered too, so your attempts to lie that only David was punished is typically pathetic. Your ‘but but later this happened…” is a usual fail with excuses.
I know your god doesn’t exist for quite a few reasons. I have indeed searchd for it, being a Christian and praying for help when I was losing my faith. So again your attempts to lie about me to create excuses for your cult’s failure fail. I have sincerely sought this god, and of course you have to try to lie and claim I wasn’t “sincere” enough. That lie also doesn’t work for the great pumpkin”.
It does matter quite a bit that christians can’t agree on what a sin is since your lack of agreement shows that not one of you is in contact with this god, despite your claims. Again, that word isn’t agreed on by christains and not one of you can show that your version is the right one. So by your own admission, you all have no idea what you are doing. There are quite a few jesuses, since again, they all want something different, so your nonsense of “the one written about by the prophets, disciples and apostles” is meaningless.
I also know that your god doesn’t exist since there is no evidence for any of the events it supposedly caused, and that at any time a Christian claims these events happened, people can be found to be living their regular, non-supernaturally influenced, lives.
Poor Jonathan, you do lie a lot. I know I don’t’ worship anything. Your baseless assertions fail miserably yet again. You are quite right, that cults have tell tale signs and atheism has none of those signs.
You can’ show that I am somehow an “authoritarian” or that I have no accountability. You have yet to show that I am intolerant of criticism. You have yet to show that I’m afraid of the outside world, or that I fantasize about “evil conspiracies and persecutions’. Do show that the persecution I have mentioned doesn’t exist, dear. You have yet to show that there is any legitimate reason to believe in the thousands of versions of Christianity or any other religion.
Let’s look at your Christianity as a cult:
Absolute authoritarianism with accountability: your god can do whatever it wants without question.
Zero tolerance for criticism: everyone who dares disagree with you deserves eternal torture.
Unreasonable fears about the outside world: baseless claims of persecution amongst real ones; attacks on other Christians; the nonsense in the bible about keeping separate from the world.
A belief that former, and other, followers are wrong for leaving or following the wrong version.
and one you left out: A requirement that everything, including family, be given up for the cult.
So, nope, atheism isn’t a cult, unless you want to claim you are in a cult since you are an atheist when it comes to all gods other than your own.
Still waiting for that evidence you claim to have. All you’ve given are baseless assertions, Jonathan. I reject your baseless claims and I explain why. You can’t make me believe since you have nothing. Being open minded, doesn’t mean accepting baseless nonsense from a cultist who can’t even convince his fellow believers his version is the only right one.
I already did what you claim will work and surprise, it fails miserably as usual. So, you have only a few option:
your god doesn’t do what you want and has thrown you under the proverbial bus
Your god doesn’t exist.
Just curious… did you take up my suggestion to pray for seven straight days? There’s nothing magical about seven days. I figured doing so would suggest that you’re serious about knowing God… if he exists. But if you’re not serious, then I’m figuring you wouldn’t waste your time. Did you?
You ask, “Why would it take an omnipotent, omniscient god time to ‘work on me’, when it could simple show me what I need to see?” There are numerous reasons: patience, longsuffering, endurance, perseverance. These characteristics take time to develop. Sure, God could ‘zap’ these qualities in us, and if that was the best solution, he’d have done it. But since he didn’t, that’s evidence he has a better plan than instant gratification. God likens this to the way an athlete competes in a race. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 says, “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
What’s the purpose of a race if everyone gets a prize without running the race? It takes time and effort to run a race. It doesn’t begin and end without time. What good would it do to see yourself running and winning the race on a monitor if you never ran the race? What would you gain? Wouldn’t you learn more by going into strict training for months or years, and then, after all that grueling hard work, eating right, sleeping right, you win the race and accomplish something you couldn’t have done without all the sacrifices? Likewise, when God takes his time working on us, he’s shaping us into the person he wants us to become. He’s refining us like gold and silver in a refiner’s fire (Malachi 3:2-4, Zechariah 13:9). I think an Olympic athlete appreciates victory more when they’ve earned it. Not when it’s handed to them.
This is not ‘excuse making.’ The Bible explains why the process of salvation might take more than 30 years in some people. When believers get to heaven, we will have a variety of experiences. We’ll be unified in Christ Jesus, and we’ll appreciate eternity more.
I’ve provided sufficient evidence that morality is objective and comes from God. You’re welcome to deny it, but the rationale is there. Morality is immaterial, so one cannot see it or touch it. Yet we know it when we see it. You say people can’t agree on what is right or wrong, but I say we can and do. Just because monkeys “seem” to have a basic morality doesn’t mean they have morals. Sometimes things aren’t as they seem.
I don’t know where you get the idea that the Bible has no problem with rape or murder. That’s incorrect. I think you’re taking the Bible out of context.
You claim I’m “desperate” for you to agree with my lies. Interesting strategy… toss out accusations for me to deny. Desperation isn’t the right word. Sure, I’d like you to know Jesus so that you can spend eternity in heaven, but I can only do so much. I’m doing my part. The rest is between you and Jesus.
I’d suggest feral children do know morality. Just because they do something wrong doesn’t mean they don’t know it. It just means they’re a sinner. That’s why our morality “fails miserably” sometimes.
Now you claim that your morality is subjective. If that’s true, then, technically, lying and murder aren’t wrong, right? They’re more like your opinion, which can change over time. You don’t want to be lied to or murdered, so don’t do it to others, and if everyone agrees, then we all get along. But if you do lie, then you either justify it, excuse yourself or admit to it. Regardless, you know that you lied. It’s not like you’re unaware. If you’re confronted with a lie, how do you respond? Do you deny it or confess? Even if you deny it, don’t you know that you told a lie and are just trying to cover it over? If lying weren’t wrong, then why not just admit to the lie? Better yet, why not tell the truth? Don’t we lie because we don’t want to be hurt, or we don’t want to hurt others, or it benefits us in some way? Maybe lying is a survival advantage. Maybe it saves us from being embarrassed. But why go through all this if lying is subjective and not objective? Why not simply tell the truth? Or why care about lying? You say that lying prevents an informed decision. So what? Does that bother you? Why? Are you a good person? What makes you a good person? Why do you want to think you’re a good person? Why do you want others to think you’re a good person? Especially one who doesn’t lie? Are you a liar? Have you ever told a lie? How does it make you feel? If lying is subjective, then it shouldn’t bother you, and you should feel fine about lying. That’s your decision. So what if it prevents someone else from having an informed decision. Why do you think they’re entitled to an informed decision? Obviously, if morality is subjective, then they have no right to an informed decision, and you don’t have to feel bad about depriving them of that right because it’s not a right. Unless you grant it to them. But you don’t have to. Unless you feel morally obligated to. But why would you feel morally obligated unless morality were objective? This little exercise demonstrates why morality is objective. You can’t escape it.
You’re correct when you state that Christians believe selfish ambition is wrong because we believe God exists, and that ambition is a direct offense to God. You desire something for the wrong reason. You want it for yourself. And you’ll do anything to get it. Sure, you can demonstrate how this can be detrimental to society, but so what? Why care unless morality is objective? Why would it bother you if society were harmed? Can’t you overcome that feeling and give in to selfish ambition, or even feel good about it? Why feel bad when you can choose to feel good? Would it bother you if you were to try and feel good about harming society? It might give you a survival advantage. As a Christian, I would know that God disapproves of selfish ambition. But if you’re an atheist, and God doesn’t exist, then you can do whatever you want without feeling bad about it, right? If it feels good, do it, right?
I’m very well aware of what survival of the fittest means in the context of evolution. I just disagree with you. It could be the sneaky one that survives. Nonetheless, they’re all trying to survive and have offspring. The lion has no empathy for the deer. The wolf has no empathy for the sheep. Neither the lion nor the wolf cares about harming their food. It doesn’t bother them one bit.
Christians may not agree on what constitutes murder, but the correct understanding is in the Bible, and God understands it. That’s all that matters. He’ll hold us accountable for murder if we violate his command. Murder is simply the unjust taking of the life of another person (made in the image of God). It doesn’t matter who agrees with this definition. What matters is that murder is wrong.
I’ve provided evidence for God’s existence. You just aren’t willing to consider it. But I hope you will. You haven’t explained why the evidence I presented isn’t evidence. All you’ve done is deny it, which doesn’t take any thought. Can you provide a rationale as to why my evidence isn’t evidence? Why isn’t the Law of Biogenesis evidence? Please provide substance and address my points.
Yes, God created Satan, and Satan was kicked out of heaven for his rebellion, along with his fallen angels. Nonetheless, there will be unity in the end because God’s plan cannot be thwarted. Amen.
Yes,Jonathan, I did as you said and your magic spell fails miserably. It’s hilarious how your god has evidently thrown you under the bus, making you look like a liar, or your god simply doesn’t exist. 7 days, 40 days, those are all silly magic numbers in your religion.
It’s hilarious how you make up yet more excuses for your god’s abject failure. No need for patience, endurance, etc it can just show me what I need to believe in it. Curious how I already have endurance and perseverance, so your god doesn’t have to “teach” me that. You simply invent nonsense. I’ve been waiting patiently for 30 years, dear, so your claims don’t work.
Then you try the lie that if it was the best solution, this god would have just given me such things. Again, no more than a lie based on a presupposition that you can’t show as true. Curious how you christians can’t agree on how to “run” to get the “prize” since you can’t agree on how to even worship this god.
No race, no god and no prize so your questions are simply nonsense. you try to claim that your god exists (no evidence) and that it somehow wants to “shape” us, which means poof goes free will. No way to resist an omnipotent being and thus no choice. Why would I need to “learn” more, when this god could simply have made me already understand? And since you cultists do spend years of training, and can’t agree on the most basic things, this god is a real screw up since it’ll have to damn billions thanks to this stupidity.
and yes, dear, it is excuse making. You have to invent lies to excuse why your god does nothing at all. Nothing in the bible says that the process of “salvation” (which christians don’t agree on) would take 30+ years. Unsurprisngly, all you are are false promises, desperate to kick the can down the road as far as you can to avoid the inevitable.
IT’s sweet that you think you’ve provided evidence but you have not. You have given repeated baseless claims that your god exists and wants the morals you want. You have nothing to show your lies are true. Morality is immaterial, and that doesn’t need a god to exist. Morality is what humans generate in their brains and it is subject since humans do not agree. People do not recognize morality when “they see it”. They recognize many different claims of morality and they analyze them on how they view the world.
You have yet to show that everyone agrees on the same morality, Jonathan. That many people agree on something doesn’t make it true, and christians don’t agree on morality at all. Yep, things may not be what they seem and you try to ignore that fact when it shows you are a failure.
I’ve read the bible dear and know it has on problem with rape and murder. Funny how this god has no problem with rape when it comes to giving little girls to soldiers as the prizes of war (Numbers 31). your god has no problem when Lot offers his daughters to be raped (Genesis 19). Your god has no problem with one of its priests allowing a concubine to be raped to death (Judges 19).
Then we have your idiot god committing murder itself when it kills people for things they didn’t do. David’s son (2 Samuel 12), the first born (Exodus 12), those it makes to be damned since it doesn’t allow them to accept it (Matthew 13, Romans 9).
Yep, you are desperate for me to agree with your lies, since you keep insisting that I need to agree with them. Yep, desperation is exactly the right word. You aren’t doing anything, but trying to lie to me. It’s always fun when the christian fails miserably and then tries to pretend it’s JC’s fault.
Yep, you’d suggest a lot of baseless nonsense. So? You can’t show that feral children have morality at all, you simply lie about that. Curious how you have nothing to show that feral children somehow magically know that they’ve done “wrong”, since even christians can’t agree on what “wrong” is.
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It’s always sweet when a cultist fails with his lies about morality. Yep, my morality is subjective and nope, that doesn’t mean murder and lying aren’t wrong. Morality is a social agreement between humans, and we decide en masse what is right and what is wrong. Yep, it can change over time, just like the morality in your bible changed over time since it is just a human invention.
Some times lying is fine, sometimes it isn’t. There is no objective morality, dear and you’ve yet to show that there is. The only way I can know that lying can be wrong is by being taught that. I can also be taught that lying is perfectly fine at times too. Sometimes we dont’ tell the truth because it would harm someone, like a jewish girl hiding from the nazis. I feel fine if I tell a lie for what I find as a good reason and yep, that is subjective too. I do enjoy when christians lie and ignore their god when convenient.
Lying isn’t subjective. One’s reaction to it is subjective. Lying can cause harm that’s why people find it to be less than optimal in most situations.
It’s lovely to see you try to claim that giving someone an informed basis to make decision isn’t important. So, if I didn’t tell you that cyanide is poisonous, then you are fine with not knowing that even though it could harm you. Good to know just how christains think.
Nope, no one has to grant that right to anyone, and then you get to be responsible for your actions and their ramifications. Moral obligation is again a social contract. If I do it, I expect you to also do it. No imaginary friend to punish anyone, despite your fantasies. Is it perfect? Nope, and since christains can’t agree on morals, your nonsense is not perfect either. All your “little exercise” does is show that it would be nice if morality was objective, it does not show that it is objective. You fail miserably again.
Yep, you christains believe a lot of things are wrong, and have no imagnary friend to turn to abut that belief. You simply lie about there being a god when it is only you who are making up these morals.
Why is wanting something for myself “wrong”, dear? You pretend your god doesn’t like it when it’s only you who don’t like it. Your imaginary friend “disapproves” of nothing, and again christains can’t agree on what it disapproves of at all.
No, dear, you had no idea what survival of the fittest meant, since you lied about what it supposed means. Yep, you disagree with me and surprise, you have no evidence to support your disagreement. All you have is the typical christian ignorance.
Christians *don’t* agree on what constitutes murder, your attempts to lie and claim ‘may disagree” fail. Your ignorant set of books has no “correct understanding” in it, being just the opinions of ignorant humans. You again lie, and find you must claim your imginary god agrees with you and only you. Your assertions fail as always.
So your god has repeatedly taking someone’s life unjustly since they did nothing wrong (David’s son, the children first born, etc) and broke none of his laws. Nice to see you agree that your god commits murder.
You have not provided evidence for your god’s existence. You have presented the same arguments any theists can use, and still no evdience for your god’s existence. Curious how there is no thing to show it exists, not a single event from the bible that it caused can be shown to have happened. I have considered your claims and have told you why they fail miserably. You yourself is lovely evidence against your god’s existence since you can’t do what it promises. Either your bible lies or you do.
There is no such thing as the “law of biogenesis”. It is an invented term by creationists who find they must lie and insist that life cannot come from non-life, with no evidence of that at all. This is why I don’t accept your claims dear, they fail. I have provided substance and I have addressed your points. Shame this is a recording medium and your lies can be easily demonstrated by my own comments. Your attempts at gaslighting don’t work if I can show where I’ve answered your claims.
here are some example of my responses:
“Morality is based on empathy and self-interest, nothing more. I can judge you based on my morality, just as you judge me based on yours. Your ignorant cult harms people in reality.Nope, even if your god is real, no one has to obey it. I certainly wouldn’t. It’s amazingly ignorant and petty. Again, claims of omnipotence don’t work if you can’t show your god to exist at all. It’s hilarious how you simply again show how your morality is no more than might equals right, that your tyrant can do whatever it wants with no questions dared to be asked.Do show how genocide is justifiable. Surely you can, right?Your analogy is not simplistic, it is wrong. The “state” is the agreement of humans and can be wrong. Your god is the invention of humans and can be wrong. So your claims of “authority” simply fail. No justice in your religion since people are killed for things they didn’t do.You try to excuse your god’s impotence by saying that “sin” is responsible. Curious how that doesn’t work very well when you claim your god is omnipotent. This god made the rules and could change them. It chooses not to so any deaths are its fault. How can they be on our heads when it isn’t us that made the idiotic decision to curse every human being for what two people supposedly did? Their blood is on your imaginary god’s hands.No need for any ultimate authority at all. You just need a job for your imaginary friend and a supposedly omnipotent stick to threaten other humans with. Your god doesn’t hold people accountable for harming others at all. All you have are baseless promises of some “hell”, which you can’t show to be true. And since this god kills kids for what others have done, funny how this god doesn’t hold the adults accountable at all. Your own bible shows your nonsense to fail miserably. Your god killed David’s son for what David did. How is this just or holding David accountable?”
Curious how you never answer my questions, Jonathan. Why not? No god, no satan. Your fairy tales say that this god kicked satan out of heaven along with angels. Those fairy tales also say that this god repeatedly feels the need to impress satan, needs satan for its plans to work, and has to free it to corrupt christians left over after this god kills all non-christians. No unity since no separation. You poor cultists can’t even agree on what this god’s plan even is with your inability to agree on the end times garbage.
Like I said, it’s not magic. But I will continue to praying for you. Perhaps God is working in you like he worked in Daniel. He didn’t change overnight. If you’ve been waiting patiently 30 years, then don’t give up. I won’t. Maybe, as a next step, find a Bible believing church to attend and get plugged in. Question your own atheism.
No, God doesn’t just hand out endurance and perseverance like it’s candy. How we deal with adversity matters, and we can’t deal with it unless we experience it. If anyone was worthy of such a cop-out it was Jesus, and he endured it for both you and I.
I get your mocking tone. I do. But atheism can offer you nothing good. Sure, you can spend the rest of your life evangelizing Christians, trying to convert them to your faith, but, in the end, your efforts are meaningless and won’t be rewarded. Your only hope is to leave atheism and come to know Jesus Christ. If you know him, then you will find hope and finish the race and win the prize. This is not a false promise.
I already touched on Christian unity and agreement. We’re sinners and won’t have true unity until we get to heaven and are covered in the righteousness of Christ. No lies, no excuses, no cult,
If morality is what humans generate in their brains, and humans don’t agree, then why does lying bother you so much? It seems your entire issue with Christianity is based upon it being a lie. So why not simply accept that lying is not a sin? Why not admit that lying is okay? Why waste so much time and effort calling me a liar? Will this endeavor make things better for you 100 years from now? Lying is perfectly fine if God doesn’t exist, so stop being upset when Christians lie to you about things like perseverance, morals, eternity, etc. To each his own.
Everyone knows murder is wrong. Everyone knows rape is wrong. They may do it anyway, but they know it’s wrong. I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t agree on this. You state that just because people agree on something doesn’t make it true. But just because there’s disagreement doesn’t make it false, either.
Yes, if morality is subjective, then murder and lying are not wrong. You can’t claim that murder and lying are right or wrong if you believe morality is subjective. Well, you can certainly make that claim, but you would be wrong. Your claim would be logically invalid. Just because you (and society) declare them wrong doesn’t make them wrong. They’re simply preferences. Sure, you can use the terms ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, but they’re not really right or wrong because they’re human conventions. So if you decide to violate one, you shouldn’t feel guilty because you haven’t done anything wrong. Sure, if you get caught, you could be punished and suffer consequences. Nonetheless, if God doesn’t exist, then no murderer is inherently immoral. They’re just misunderstood.
You claim that lying isn’t subjective, but, if God doesn’t exist, then it is subjective. Sure, lying can cause harm, but why do you think causing harm is wrong? Maybe causing harm is good. If a fox harms a rabbit, is that good or bad? And for whom? If an angler fish deceives a smaller fish by dangling its illicium to lure them in, is that lying? And is it wrong? Lying sure seems to work well in nature.
I’m not making the case that lying is ok. I believe lying is a sin and is objectively wrong and immoral. So you expect me to submit to your expectations? Really? What if I don’t agree with your expectations? I expect you to submit to my expectations. How’s that? Do you agree to submit to my expectations?
But nice that you admit it would be nice if morality were subjective. That’s a good start.
Now you continue to claim that God “has no problem with rape” and then you site Numbers, Genesis and Judges. However, nowhere in Numbers 31 does it mention rape. You’re assuming rape because that’s what you want it to say. But it doesn’t. And nowhere in Genesis 19 or Judges 19 is rape considered morally good. Just because bad people wanted to rape or did rape doesn’t mean that God approves of it. The Bible isn’t PG. It is very open about the depravity of man, and these chapters testify to man’s depravity.
God doesn’t commit “murder.” Consider, if you write a novel and someone dies, are you- the author- guilty of murder? Of course not. The author is the creator and cannot be guilty of murder. Neither can God be guilty of murder. He has the right to take the life of every human, and he’s justified in doing so.
The Bible mentions a global flood, and the geologic column is evidence. But I don’t expect you to agree. Even though it’s evidence, you will deny it based on your personal worldview. The evidence for God’s existence abounds, but anyone can dismiss that evidence as easily as a flat-earther can dismiss evidence for a spherical earth, or as easily as a contrarian will deny whatever truth anyone says. There was a man who denied that Mount St. Helens would erupt right up until the day the volcanic eruption flattened the house he lived in. I have provided mounds of evidence for God’s existence. You just choose not to believe it. Your comments are not evidence of anything except that you actively refuse to believe. The Law of Biogenesis is real, my friend. Look it up. God bless.
And since your prayer aka magic spell is dependent on supernatural nonsense, it is indeed magic. You keep offering me “what ifs” that you can’t show are true. You have to lie and invent nonsense that your iamgnary friend is “working in” me, and yep, no evidence for that nonsene either.
Why would I keep believing in lies, Jonathan? Like all frauds, you tell me to keep believing in your lies. Sorry, that ship passed a long time ago, and just like it your prayers fail miserably. You aren’t a Christian at all per your own bible.
Every church claims that they and only they are “bible believing” and surprise, they can’t show that their lies are any different from the other churches. Why would I question my atheism when your god can’t get it up to show me it exists? You can’t show me it exists either.
Your imaginary friend hands out nothing, that’s your cult’s problem. You keep trying to say this god hands out morals, etc, but when it comes to things like endurance and perserverance, you have to make up excuses why it fails with those. Jesus endured nothing, being imaginary. And a burn victim has endured far worse than the inconvenient weekend your imaginary messiah had.
Oh dear, am I mocking you? You bet your sweet bippy I am. I mock frauds and failures, whose lies cause real harm. Atheism offers me plenty of good since it means I don’t have to make excuses for worshipping a god that commits and commands genocide, had no problem with rape, no problem with killing people, including kids, for things they haven’t done and has no problem with slavery.
Atheism isn’t a religion, no matter how many times you Christians try to claim it is. It requires no faith, just a lack of evidence. You are an atheist too, Jonathan.
Happily, my efforts aren’t meaningless at all, but thanks for the attempts at gaslighting. I don’t need to be rewarded by your imaginary friend. I get all the rewards I need from myself, knowing I’ve done the right thing to stand up against the hate and ignorance in religion. I have plenty of hope, and none of it has to do with your imaginary friend. It is a false promise since you have no evidence for your claims. Happily, your sadistic little fantasies will never come true. I don’t need a “prize” where I have to stroke off a god for eternity.
Yep, you tried to lie about Chritian unity and agreement. You failed. You have no unity at all, and since heaven doesn’t exist, you will have no unity ever. Your cult fails yet again to agree on the most basic things.
Morality is invented by humans. Morality is indeed subjective and humans often don’t agree. Lying bothers me because it prevents me, or anyone, from making a informed decision and that can cause me harm. Christianity is indeed a set of lies, and those lies do harm people.
There is no “sin” dear, just the lies of theists who want to control others by claiming that some imaginary powerful being agrees with their subjective morality. Lying isn’t okay in most situations, no matter if your imaginary friend exists or not, and it’s sweet you keep trying to lie to me about what I supposedly “should” think. I call you a liar since you are one.
It’s great how the liar desperately pleads with me not to call him that. I use the time and effort to stand against the harm you can do. Yep, it’ll make the world better, not by much, but it will make it better to stand against your hate and ignorance. Oh dear, the whine “stop being upset when christains lie to you”. Sorry, dear, your lies don’t get a pass with me. But thanks for admitting that Christians lie about such things.
Again with more baseless assertions. No, everyone doesn’t *know* that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, etc. You are a very poor liar. Feral children don’t know these things at all. They must be taught. All humans must be taught morality. You again try your argument from personal ignorance to try to lie to me, Jonathan. That’s precious. Since you can’t show any innate morality, yep, disagreement makes your claims about that false.
If morality is subjective, that doesn’t stop things from being viewed as right and wrong. You keep returning to your baseless lies. I can need claim murder and lying are wrong thanks to my subjective morality. Yep, it’s my opinion. That doesn’t mean I can’t judge it. Your lies about it being “logically invalid” are amusing coming from someone who constantly uses logical fallacies. Show how it is “logically invalid”.
There is no “really right” or “really wrong”, that’s just from your lies about objective morality which you still can’t show exists. No inherent morality or immorality. Again, your lies about objective morality fail and thus any argument you make from them fail.
Lying isn’t subjective. A lie is intentional false information told for the benefit of the speaker/writer. Nothing about your imaginary god existence makes that change. You did a great job of showing how even you know that morality is subjective. Harm is subjective too. And no, a fish hunting isn’t lying. That’s why there are different words for such things.
Your god has no problem with lying so it’s amusing to see you whine so much about that.
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet. Ezekiel 14:9
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11
I have no expectations for a Christian and their lying. If you expect me to agree with your nonsense, it won’t happen, no matter how hard you pray.
No start, since morality will never be objective. And your god is a pathetic failure when it comes to morality.
I do enjoy when Christians try to lie and claim Numbers 31 doesn’t mention rape. So, Jonathan, what do you think happens when you give virgin girls to soldiers to be their slaves, and your god has told you that women are no more than property? Your god does nothing to stop the rape of the concubine and never tells Lot he was wrong. Those chapters testify to how your god does nothing.
Your god allows children to be raped inside its churches. Being omnipotent it could stop it without a thought, and yet it evidently chooses not to. Your god is depraved as the men who invented it. I’m sure you’ll try to lie and claim free will is the reason this god allows such things, but that fails since this god stops people repeated, and per your jesus, even the thought of something is equal to the action, so this god just needs to let people think of things to have a reason to kill them, never needing to let the actual event happen.
Again, your bible is a set of ignorant nonsense from ignorant people whose morality was nothing like modern morality is.
Your god does indeed commit murder. It’s hilarious that you compare a fictional character to a real person to excuse your imaginary friend. Murder is an unjust taking of a life, to punish someone for something they didn’t do. The fact that you claim your imaginary friend is a “creator” doesn’t mean it unjustly kills people in your bible. Why does this god have this supposed “right” dear? Surely you can explain that, right?
Being a geologist, I know your claims about the geologic column are lies. Curious how there is no way for the flood as described the bible to make what we see in that column. A flood will create one massive layer, sorted within itself. It will never make individual layers, each sorted within themselves. Physics doesn’t work that way. You can test this for yourself by taking various sizes of soil, sand, gravel, etc, and putting them in a clear container with water and then shaking it violently. Your bible simply lies.
The magic flood would sort everything hydraulically, which means we should find dinos, etc that are similar in size and weight to humans mixed in with humans. We never find that. What we do find is what evolutionary theory predicts. There are also other things that can’t happen in a flood. No layers of salts will form. No layers with evaporation cracks on their tops will form.
Christians can’t even agree on a global flood, since you cultists can’t agree on what the bible “really” means. You can’t agree on how, when or where the flood happened.
So, nope, there is no evidence for your imaginary friend, and you are part of that lack of evidence with your inability to do what jesus promises. You, per your bible, are a fraud. Alas for you, your claims are as worthless as a flat earther’s, especially since the bible says the earth is flat. Yep, Harry was stupid and denied the evidence that actually existed. Curious how you have no evidence that exists at all.
You have provided no evidence, Jonathan. You have provided baseless assertions, nothing more. You have shown how you are ignorant of the most basic facts. And you have shown you are not a Christian at all. Funny how I looked the “law of biogenesis” and it is a false claim made by theists, nothing more. I have already shown this. A scientific law is: “Scientific laws or laws of science are statements, based on repeated experiments or observations, that describe or predict a range of natural phenomena.[1] The term law has diverse usage in many cases (approximate, accurate, broad, or narrow) across all fields of natural science (physics, chemistry, astronomy, geoscience, biology). Laws are developed from data and can be further developed through mathematics; in all cases they are directly or indirectly based on empirical evidence. It is generally understood that they implicitly reflect, though they do not explicitly assert, causal relationships fundamental to reality, and are discovered rather than invented.[2]
Scientific laws summarize the results of experiments or observations, usually within a certain range of application. In general, the accuracy of a law does not change when a new theory of the relevant phenomenon is worked out, but rather the scope of the law’s application, since the mathematics or statement representing the law does not change. As with other kinds of scientific knowledge, scientific laws do not express absolute certainty, as mathematical laws do. A scientific law may be contradicted, restricted, or extended by future observations.”
So your lie of a “law” is shown for what it is. At best, you have a hypothesis: Life can only come from life. You have not shown that this is true. You baselessly assert it is from your personal ignorance yet again.
Atheists can be gullible and join cults. They don’t only join you version of christianity, so does that make islam, etc just as valid as your religion? That’s what your argument claims.
Presuppositional apologetics fail from the outset since, if you can’t show your premises to be true, your results always fail miserably.
Thanks for your response. I’ll do my best to answer all your questions, so pardon the long reply. I hope you will read through it and consider what I’ve written. By the way, did you watch the video?
I disagree with your assessment that Christian morality is demonstrably subjective. If it were, then you would have demonstrated this by now. First, if there is no God or god(s), then we can agree morality doesn’t exist. It’s not even subjective because a corrupt government can force its own version of morality on its people, and we see that happening today all across the world. Media can shape morality. Politics can shape morality. You may think morality is subjective, but I bet you believe what society tells you to believe. That’s might makes right.
However, if God exists, then morality is not subjective. It’s objective because God is the ultimate authority, and he has revealed what is moral and just. He has given us the Ten Commandments, and he has revealed what is right and wrong in the Bible so there is little misunderstanding.
Christians don’t “invent” a list of morals because God is the authority, and he’s the one who judges between right and wrong. We believe morality has been instilled in us by our creator.
Now where do you get your morality from? Who are you to judge Christians and God? You accuse Christians of inventing morality. Is that wrong? Have you invented your own morals? Do you believe it’s morally wrong that God doesn’t follow his own morals? What’s wrong with might makes right? You seem to be very judgmental of God and Christians, but if morality is subjective, then why should you take issue with God or Christians? Isn’t that a bit hypocritical? Do you try to impose your morals upon others? Isn’t that what you’re attempting to do now?
But if God is real, then we must abide by his standards and morals, and he will judge us by his standard. God is omnipotent and all powerful, so he can do anything, but he “can’t” violate his own morality because there’s no one greater than he. He’s not subject to any authority but himself. He doesn’t need to make excuses for genocide or murder because he’s not guilty. His actions are justifiable. No excuses necessary.
I know this analogy is simplistic, but consider, if someone murders another person, they’re guilty of murder. The state has every right to impose the death penalty if that person is justly found guilty of murder. Why? Because they have the authority to impose the death penalty upon a murderer. There was a crime, and the justice system works to protect its citizens from injustice. If one is deprived of justice, then the authorities have the right to impose penalties, including death. But God is the ultimate judge, and his decisions are just. Sadly, children do die in this world, but ultimately it’s because of our sin that they die. So their death is on our heads, not God’s. Their blood is on us. We’re guilty. They’re suffering and dying because we’re sinners.
This isn’t simply might makes right. There must be an ultimate authority in order for there to be morality. God must hold people accountable for harming others and sinning (primarily) against him. It would be wrong if God withheld justice altogether because he promised to uphold justice. In the same way, if the government looked the other way when crimes are committed, then they’re in violation of the laws they promised to uphold. So if God didn’t judge us or hold us accountable, then he would be in violation of his own morality, and he will not be against himself. God is mighty, but he is also right to use his might.
Atheists want to blame God, but we will all stand before him, and we will be condemned unless our sins are forgiven. And that’s why we need Jesus Christ. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). I hope you will come to Jesus.
Glad you admit atheists can join cults. What cult have you joined? I know you think Christianity is a cult, but that word is thrown around so loosely that a finger can be pointed at anyone, including you. So do you deny being part of a cult?
But, again, if God is real, then Christianity is not a cult. In this case, Daniel became a Christian after realizing that atheism couldn’t answer his biggest questions. Are you saying that you can answer his questions about morality and such? So far you haven’t done a very good job. All you’ve done is make unsubstantiated claims.
Of course atheists can join cults, and there are different versions of Christianity. But there’s only one true Christian faith, and that’s found in Jesus Christ. He is the church, and those who are not born again will be judged by Jesus when their time comes. So other religions aren’t valid because Jesus makes the rules, and we have to follow the rules. If we don’t, then we can’t get to heaven by other means. Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
Again, if God is real, then presuppositional apologetics is true. So, do you believe right and wrong exist? Is rape wrong? Is murder wrong? Is stealing wrong? Is lying wrong? Is adultery wrong? Is what Hitler did wrong? If you dare admit any of this is wrong, then you’ve just demonstrated that presuppositional apologetics is correct. But if you deny there’s right and wrong, then what Hitler did wasn’t immoral, right? And we’re free to do whatever we want, even if it hurts others. Is that what you believe?
If morality is objective, then God exists. And I think most people, including you, know that right and wrong exist because we know right and wrong when we see it. We know when we’ve wrongly hurt others. We know when others wrong us. If there were no right or wrong, then we wouldn’t need laws, police, judges, etc. But we do because right and wrong exist. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t care anymore than animals do. The reason why humans can identify right and wrong is because God exists, and we are made in his image. This is why you know the difference between right and wrong.
Anyway, I’ll close by demonstrating God’s existence another way. If you want scientific evidence, check out other articles on this website. I’ve presented many cases for God’s existence. But the one I’ll share right now is concerning the Law of Biogenesis. This law states that life only comes from life. There are no exceptions. No one has ever observed life forming by naturalistic processes. Louis Pasteur demonstrated this before 1860. Therefore, if life cannot arise spontaneously via naturalistic means, the only viable alternative is that God exists. Life must have been designed, and there is no better designer than God. Other gods certainly don’t hold up to scrutiny like the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
morality exists,just not objective morality,
do show what morality your god wants, Jonathan. considering how christians can’t agree and not a single christian can do what jesus promises, including *you*, show you have the right religion.
surely you can, right?
there is no “law of biogenesis”. so do tell what that is. Where is there evidence that life can only come from life? Surely you can show evidence for that too, right? Claiming it can’t happen means you can show why.
All you have are god of the gaps arguments, dependent on humans never doing any more research. Since we’ve not observed your god, that means it doesn’t exist, right?
Let’s take a look at your claims. No problem with long replies. I’ve heard all of this before and I’ll show you how it all fails. And yes I did watch the video.
You may disagree with me that Christian morality is subjective but you’ve not show I’m wrong. I have already shown it is subjective since 1. Christians don’t agree on what morals their god wants and 2. Christians must invent another set of morals for their god since their god commits genocide, etc and Christians must excuse that. This means your morals change subject to what someone is.
Morality exists, objective morality has no evidence for it. It’s always hilarious when Christians try to claim that if their god oesn’t exist, morality somehow vanishes. Curious howthat doesn’t work since humans are the source of morality. Yep, a corrupt gov’t can force its morality on people; that still doesn’t mean morality doesn’t exist. Many things shape morality, and we can see that yet again in christains since their morals depend on what they personally prefer. That isn’t might make right when it is humans agreeing to follow morals. Only forcing your morals on someone is “might makes right” and surprise, that’s what Christians, and other theists have done for millennia at the tip of a sword.
Still no evidence for your version of the Christian god and no evidence for any version of any god. Curious how Christians don’t’ follow the commandments they don’t like and there are far far more than ten. If you follow what is in your bible, how many adulterers, disobedient children, etc have you killed? Per your bible it’s a sin not to. I know what you believe, your problem is you can’t show what you believe is true. You all believe that morality that you like is agreed to by your god, and not a single one of you can show that your morals are divinely approved.
I get my morality from other humans by being taught. I can judge Christians and god since your morality is no better than my own and in many cases, far far worse with your acceptance of genocide, killing people for things they didn’t do and slavery. I have no problem with humans inventing morality. I do have a problem with humans lying that some imaginary being should be claimed as morality’s source and pretending this being will punish anyone who disagrees with them with eternal torture.
What’s wrong with might equals right? ROFL. Curious how you show it when you complain about “corrupt governments”. Human morality isn’t perfect but it’s what we have, including Christians.
Morality is based on empathy and self-interest, nothing more. I can judge you based on my morality, just as you judge me based on yours. Your ignorant cult harms people in reality.
Nope, even if your god is real, no one has to obey it. I certainly wouldn’t. It’s amazingly ignorant and petty. Again, claims of omnipotence don’t work if you can’t show your god to exist at all. It’s hilarious how you simply again show how your morality is no more than might equals right, that your tyrant can do whatever it wants with no questions dared to be asked.
Do show how genocide is justifiable. Surely you can, right?
Your analogy is not simplistic, it is wrong. The “state” is the agreement of humans and can be wrong. Your god is the invention of humans and can be wrong. So your claims of “authority” simply fail. No justice in your religion since people are killed for things they didn’t do.
You try to excuse your god’s impotence by saying that “sin” is responsible. Curious how that doesn’t work very well when you claim your god is omnipotent. This god made the rules and could change them. It chooses not to so any deaths are its fault. How can they be on our heads when it isn’t us that made the idiotic decision to curse every human being for what two people supposedly did? Their blood is on your imaginary god’s hands.
No need for any ultimate authority at all. You just need a job for your imaginary friend and a supposedly omnipotent stick to threaten other humans with. Your god doesn’t hold people accountable for harming others at all. All you have are baseless promises of some “hell”, which you can’t show to be true. And since this god kills kids for what others have done, funny how this god doesn’t hold the adults accountable at all. Your own bible shows your nonsense to fail miserably. Your god killed David’s son for what David did. How is this just or holding David accountable?
No, atheists don’t’ blame god since we know it doesn’t exist. We do blame humans who make up lies about this imaginary being. Happily, your sadistic fantasies will never come true and nope, we don’t stand before this figment of the imagination. Since Christians can’t agree on wht this god considers a sin, no way to “confess” them.
Which jesus shall I come to? The catholic one? The evangelical one? The Calvinist one? The anabaptist one? The Baptist one? The Mormon one? There are so many and yep, you all don’t agree on which one is the “right” one.
Yep, atheists can join cults, including yours. Yep, I deny being part of a cult since I don’t worship anything at all. A cult is a religion. In modern parlance, it often means a religion that is somehow odd compared to the immediate culture surrounding it. Cults often require the members to give up everything for the cult, including family. It’s nothing surprising that Christianity requires the same thing. Most Christians ignore those parts, since jesus make modern living rather difficult with his requirements.
All you have are “ifs”, and no evidence for your god at all, any of the many many versions you Christians invent. Daniel fails since Christianity doesn’t answer his “biggest questions” either, but they do make lots and lots of baseless claims and outright lies. There isn’t even one “Christianity” to appeal to, there are dozens and dozens of versions, each which claims the others are wrong and not one of you are able to do what jesus promises to his true followers.
Per your own bible, you are all frauds. No one “true Christian faith” at all. You all claim to be “born again” but not one of you can show that you are the only TrueChristians™. You all are sure that those other Christians will be judged, but not you. Curious how you can’t show jesus to merely exist or what rules he makes since you all invent different rules, again claimed to be divinely approved.
What I always enjoy most about Christians is that their jesus says that they must follow *all* of this god’s laws, and that includes the ones in old testament too. They all come up with excuses why they don’t have to do that, trying to claim that Paul said otherwise, etc. Great to see Paulianists rather than Christians.
Quoting bible verses doesn’t help much since I know the bible very well, and I know it makes false claims, contradicts itself, etc. So no reason to believe any of it.
And yet more “ifs”. Right and wrong are subjective since what may be right to me may be wrong to you. I find rape, murder, stealing, lying and genocide wrong since those things harm me directly and since I have empathy, I can grasp that other humans wouldn’t like them either. Curious how your god has no problem at all with rape, murder, stealing, lying, and genocide, so are those things “right” or “wrong”? Again, Christians have to invent different morals for their imaginary friend to excuse its actions.
Funny how I haven’t shown your presuppositional nonsense to be correct at all. But nice attempt to lie about that. Yep, we are indeed free to do what we want and we are also free to stop people from doing what they want. Curious how your god never does anything to stop anyone. Just as if it doesn’t exist.
Humans learn morals from other humans and those morals, again, are invented by humans. No innate knowledge of morality. We know that from the sad cases of feral children. They have to be taught morality just like everyone else. So your lies about objective right and wrong fail again.
You have closed showing no evidence for your imaginary god and your “articles” are the typical failures of any apologist. There is no “law of biogenesis”, but nice try. Creationists simply invent that nonsense to support their baseless lies. No evidence that life can only come from life. You simply assume it to be the case since you are typically ignorant. Louis Pasteur did no such thing, but again, nice false claims.
As always, all you have are god of the gaps lies, dependent on humans never doing any more research. We may never completely figure out abiogenesis. That still doesn’t mean your imaginary friend exists.
Curious how your “designer” is evidently a moron, and/or malicious, since this god managed to choose to make the sun give humans and other animals cancer, make DNA to fail often and horrible, and make the human body to fail in many many ways, including guaranteeing that thousands of humans will choke to death every year thanks to the “design” of the throat.
and ROFL, your god doesn’t hold up to scrutiny at all, just like every other god. No evidence for its existence, and curious how every other cultist makes the same claims about their gods too.
I’ll keep this short because all I can do is repeat myself. I’ve made my point and answered your questions honestly. I’ve read your entire diatribe and I stand by my responses.
If you’ve prayed for God to reveal himself to you, then maybe he is. Perhaps he brought you to this site for a purpose. Not that there’s anything special about this site, but because you have questions. So I’m happy to continue our dialogue.
Now you came to two conclusions of your own: either God “doesn’t do what you want and has thrown you under the proverbial bus Your god doesn’t exist.” Or he’s working in you, and has given you an opportunity to learn more about him and come to know him as your personal savior.
I’ve presented sufficient evidence for morality. Now it’s up to you to accept or reject it. Animals have no morality. Humans do. We believe in right and wrong. We know rape is wrong. We know murder is wrong. How is this possible unless God is real? Objective morality does exist. You know this. It’s instilled in us. But it can’t exist if God doesn’t exist because it would be subjective, with each person doing as he pleases, and if morality is subjective, then there is no ultimate standard that is greater than the individual. But if we are made in God’s image, then this explains how and why right and wrong exists. This is evidence.
Case in point: You expressed your morality by stating that you can judge Christians and god, and you have a problem with humans lying about God’s existence, etc. You also admit your morality is made up and invented by other people based on empathy and self-interest. So, if morality is invented, then it doesn’t really exist and you have no right to impose your beliefs on anyone else, or you’d be a hypocrite. And if your morality is in conflict with my morality, then your morality is no better than mine. Lying is okay if God doesn’t exist. But if you have a problem with lying, then to each his own. You like ketchup on your hotdog, I like mustard. Lying is only morally wrong if God exists because he’s the ultimate source of truth. Not you. You could be wrong. God may exist. And if he does, then everything you said is a lie. You’re no better than anyone else. Even if you became king and outlawed any religion you saw fit, nobody would have to agree with you, although you could force them to publicly agree with you or face your wrath. But if God exists, then your action would be morally wrong because you’re acting out of self-ambition, which is wrong. See how that works?
Again, there’s a difference between one person murdering another and a lion killing and eating an ape. Why? What’s the difference if God doesn’t exist? What role does empathy play in the survival of the fittest? Now, if God made man in his image and said, “Do not murder,” suddenly murder is universally wrong. This explains why we know that murder is wrong. This is the evidence you’re looking for.
Finally, Christians will be held accountable by God. We are subject to God’s morality too. Just because we can’t agree on everything doesn’t negate God’s existence. Once we get to heaven, then we’ll have unity.
I invite you to continue the conversation. I think our discussion will be more meaningful if you focus on one or two important points.
Yep, all you can do is repeat false claims. That you stand by nonsense isn’t surprising. It also doesn’t make your nonsense true.
I do enjoy when Christians try ot make excuses for their god’s evident non-existence. All you have is “but but my god really does exist and he brought you here”. No evidence of that, and considering your failure, your god certainly has made a poor choice in trying to convince me with you.
Why would it take an omnipotent, omniscient god time to “work on me”, when it could simple show me what I need to see? Again, you simply make excuses, kicking the can down the road in a last ditch attempt to cover up your god’s failure. Why would it take 30+ years? Oh right, you’ll claim ignorance while you try to insist that you know what your god is doing.
No, you haven’t provided sufficient, or any evidence, that morality is objective, or that it comes from your god. So yep, I reject your baseless nonsense. Some animals do seem to have a basic morality, with monkeys being able to recognize fairness.
Humans have many different moralities, and can’t agree on what is “right” and “wrong”. We see this in all cultures, and we see how cultural morals change over time, even in your ignorant bible. Your bible has no problem with rape at all, so you can’t claim that “we know rape is wrong”. Your bible has no problem with murder, so again, you can’t say “we know murder is wrong”.
Again, whining and stamping your feet doesn’t make objective morality exist. It also doesn’t make your god exist since again, Christians can’t agree on what morals this god wants and this god is notably silent on the subject. I know that morality isn’t objective, so your assertions are just nonsense spewed by a Christian who is desperate for me to agree with his lies.
As I have demonstrated, morals aren’t instilled in any humans. We know that from the cases of feral children who weren’t taught morals. Yep, since you can’t show your god exists, no reason to think that morals are objective. You start with a presupposition that is false and thus all of your conclusions are also false. No need for a “ultimate standard”. But dear, do show why you think there has to be one. Surely you can, right?
Yep, I have expressed my morality and yep, it is subjective. You still fail, dear. Morality does exist, it is subjective, and sometimes it fails miserably. Still no evidence for your imaginary friend. Lying isn’t morally wrong only if your god exists. Again, your presuppositions fail. Lying is wrong sine it prevents a informed decision. And yep, that is an subjective opinion of mine. Morals gain power if they fulfill what the society needs: stability and survival. That’s how we can determine whose morals are “better”, but not if they are objective.
“if god exists…” Yep, the crux of all of your nonsense is based on that, and you can’t show this god exists at all. Why is self-ambition wrong, dear? In your case, you need to pretend some imaginary being doesn’t like it. I can simply show how it can be detrimental to society.
You then show the typical Christian ignorance on what “survival of the fittest” means in the context of evolution. It doesn’t say that violence, strength, etc is the “fittest”, but what works in the current environment is the most likely to be pass down to the next generation. Empathy fits easily into the survival of the group. That Christians can’t agree in what “do not murder” even means in their bible, yet again showing that your morality is subjective. Again, you have no evidence, just baseless lies.
No evidence of any god and thus no evidence to support your baseless claims that christains, or anyone else, will be “held accountable by god”. Since you can’t agree on what morals this god wants, you have no idea who will be accountable for what. Curious how there was no “unity” in heaven either, since your god managed to make a rebellious angel, and either couldn’t kill it or needed it.
My discussion is meaningful. If you find it difficult to discuss more than one thing, do admit it and not try to blame me. What would you like to discuss?
You are lying when you say you know “many atheists” who have turned to the cult of Christianity- what number could you possibly certify?
Certainly, there are a few misguided former rationalists who throw away their critical faculties in pursuit of the consoling fictions of monotheism, but a few here and there are no match for the overwhelming numbers of former Christians who have become “Nones,” though only a minority of these go the culturally disapproved route of embracing atheism as a self-designation.
Wow, you don’t know me, but you claim I’m lying? Well, if you’re a militant atheist, then it’s not all that surprising, as anything objectionable could be thought of as a lie.
But if there is no God or god(s), then what’s wrong with lying? Why would it bother you? And why should I care if it bothers you? After all, morality doesn’t exist, right? And right and wrong don’t exist. Just personal preferences.
And if your brain is made up of chemical reactions put together by time and chance, how do you even know whether your critical thinking faculties are working in a way that you’re able to accurately perceive reality? You could be some construct, or you could be a nut case without knowing it.
Anyway, I could name a number of atheists turned Christian and you would still call me a liar just because. So why should I bother entertaining your game? Actually, I’ve never tried to put a number to it before, so just for the fun of it I’ll play along.
From my own church I know of 11 people who were once professing atheists to one degree or another. I have 3 family members who are former atheists.
Now I’ll name 23 former atheists, all of whom I have either met, read their work, or know personally and are now in various ministries (or deceased): C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, J. Warner Wallace, Curt Blattman, Dr. Markus Blietz, Adrienne Johnson, Dr. Yingguang Liu, Dr. Richard Lumsden, Dr. Jobe Martin, Dr. Jim Mason, Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Dr. Frank Morrison, Malcom Muggeridge, Jason Pratt, Dr. John Sanford, Neil Thomas, Dr. Jeffrey Tomkins, Doug Corrigan, Stuart Burgess, Alex Siefert, Mark Casson, Anthony Rogers (23).
That’s at least 37 atheists that I can come up with for this exercise. I know there are more that I’ve met throughout my life but can’t recall at the moment. Needless to say, that’s a lot and constitutes “many atheists.” And I wouldn’t say that any of them are “misguided.” That’s a personal judgment by you. But who’s to say your brain is dependable? After all, it was an evolutionary process of trial and error that led to your ability to think.
What a family you were born to- 4 family members who were once that most reviled of thinkers, atheists, who magically turned into hardcore worshippers of ancient mystical religions? Maybe you should write a book – what the hell happened?
You seem to be taking hardcore, surveillance state notes on your fellow myth-devotees at your church. How do they prove that they were as atheist as they claim to be, or maybe they just count doubt while taking drugs?
The number you come up with of famous apologists in history is absurdly low, and as for the nonsense you try to come up about morality is just tedious. I’m sure you have some areas of intellectual or manual competence that you can pursue rather than this. – good luck.
Sorry, I’m having trouble making sense of what you wrote. Firstly, I said it was 3 family members (not 4), and it would be incorrect to characterize Christianity as magical or mystical. It is interesting noting the terms you use to characterize your opponents. But no, definitely not “hardcore” or “surveillance”. I hadn’t put much thought into it until you asked. So I’m fascinated by the psychology you’re employing to slander me.
How do they “prove” their claims? Well, I guess I just believe them. I don’t really have a protocol for examining their claims, but I have no reason to doubt them.
And I’m not sure what criteria you’re using to determine that my number of famous apologists is absurdly low. I only named the ones that came to mind and have no desire to come up with an exhaustive list. I’m sure I know many more, but I figured those I listed were sufficient. However, I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. You seem to be a contrarian, determined to object to anything I write, no matter how trivial.
And what are you objecting to about morality? I think what I wrote was spot on. Objective morality can only exist if God exists. If God doesn’t exist, then there is no morality, and everyone can do as they please. It’s that simple.